黄笃与汪一舟的对话
http://www.zhuokearts.com 2016-04-05 新闻来源:卓克艺术网
艺术家:汪一舟 、 
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   黄笃(以下简称:黄):前段时间,美术界大多在热议水墨画与当代艺术的关系,这一话题所引申出的是水墨艺术怎样延展其当代性。从这一视角看,你这次有机会在今日美术馆1号馆主展厅创作一个巨大的装置作品,试图通过这样具体的艺术实验对以上问题做出回应。那么,你为什么会有这样的想法?怎么会产生从平面性转向三维空间的想法?
   汪一舟(以下简称:汪):其实,我很早就有做立体空间性作品的想法,但一直没有动力,因为这次要做今日的展览,当我看到美术馆现场的空间,又一次把我的想法激发出来。我觉得中国的材料、语言形式有特别之处,如能进行转换,与空间有关,通过材料原本的物性,会有助于中国思维境界的释放,于是,将平面的感受做成空间性的、立体的,这个愿望就更强烈了。之前也有艺术家做过相关尝试,直接在自然界做这样的作品,把中国某种人文情趣与自然进行结合,也做得很有意思,我认为这是一种直接的手法,是直接与山和水发生关系,有点畅玩现场,身临其境的感觉,是一种真实的体验。而我把山的形体和水的状态剥离出来,放置在现代的美术馆空间,得到另外一种感觉。长期以来关于艺术我一直在强调一点,它首先要是艺术家对自然事物的感受,在把感受用艺术家的方式、手法传达出来,传达出来的东西,就已不再是自然界的真实东西了,是另外的,不固定于具象的物质,它可能是精神的、思想的,然后别人再来看,便又营造了一个新的氛围。这其中最核心的东西就是艺术家的学养与积累,你剥离到什么样,是雅、是俗,拿捏到什么度,我认为这是中国文化的独到之处,也是充分体现艺术家人生修养之关键所在。重新塑造一个氛围,这个氛围还是人文的,只不过是另外一种不同的,不是我直接把你带到自然去看,这是我想做的。
   黄:关于山与水,中国的水墨画惯于将之纳入整体性中给以表现,如北宋代画家范宽的《溪山行旅图》,一座大山矗立眼前,和山水一起映入人的眼帘,溪山深虚,流动的瀑布或溪流,水若有声。静止画面中表现出一种动感,同时在空间上呈现一种时间的感觉。而南宋画家马远的《水图》表现了对水观察的细致入微,以独特的笔墨技表现了水的形态美感,波浪如鳞,不激不怒,如微风习习,轻轻掠过开阔的湖面。他尤其以颤抖的笔法,描写浪涛的起落,彷佛其下有蛟龙蛰伏,具有汹涌澎湃和浩淼之气。水的动感被的表现的如此生动。当然,之前,你在传统基础上所表现的山水,线条运用的比较少,具体说在空间结构上大量的留白,显得更加简洁、单纯而朴素。那么,你是如何理解山水的这种静态、动态及空间的关系的。
   汪:我很喜欢五代到北宋的山水,那个时期有一种高远的,或者说是高古的气魄,他们对于山的理解就已经是山而又非山了,更多的是一种精神力量、是人的一种修为,因此他们画的山经常是非常的高、同时又非常的概括,尽管画里涵盖很多笔法来描写那些山石走势,树木状态,但你整个看下来,山的气势非常磅礴,又很概括,总体来讲,他们做了那么多事情,都是为了把山的气魄展现出来。马远画了很多的水,他所强调的是水的一种浩淼、水的波动、和山有同样的气势。人与之相比,非常渺小,所以这样一来,就把山和水,不再理解成一个物体,而是一种精神。后来,中国山水画发展逐渐的被收收敛起来了,特别是明清以后的山水画家所注重的是描写山水的情趣,反而气度变小了。五代的高远、磅礴、元代的平远、辽阔的感觉都不够了,也就是说格局变小了,到我们现代人画山水收的更紧了,变成了玩弄技法,全然没有了高山仰止的境界了。我去山里体验,住在里面观夜山,我觉得山最重要的不是千变万化的形态,而是他给人的气势。你只要看一座山峰,形态就已经够了;你看一条河,从形态上也已经够了。所以,我的作品用的更多的是减法,即使我表现再多的形态,也未必能够真实的表现出来,所以我觉得就用一条线,就这样简简单单地去画,这就是山,我的山。
   黄:我还看到了你的另一类《山》系列作品,用铜做成线条状的雕塑形式,语言单纯而质朴,具体是以线来编织成了一个立体的山,且绵延起伏,放在空间中墙面旁,以白色墙面为衬托,形成了一种富有诗意的语言。试问,你是如何将从传统水墨画的线或抽象化的线转化成雕塑/装置的语言的。
   汪:我一直想把我笔下的一条线非常自然地还原到立体空间去,所以就呈现出这个系列的作品了,这是两年前做的,作品组合起来体量较大,差不多十几米、二十几米。我是这样想,因为我笔下画山就只是画个轮廓,我除去、削弱了传统山水画所有的构成与皴擦,只强调一个轮廓,包括我画的水、荷、树等等,都是极简的一笔,其实这一笔从中国画的角度来讲,笔的力量和感觉是非常重要的,有点近乎石涛的“一画”之意,当然这也很考验艺术家,并不是都能做到这种感觉的。我想这种感觉如果用立体材料表现出来的样子会怎样?就像贾科梅蒂,他为什么能在西方把自己的雕塑做到一个极致的高度,其实他也是强化了他的线条,只是他的线条比较东方的线意趣点有所不同,强调了线条之间对比的关系,然后把它做成了立体。实际上也正是这个因素启发了我,我的线条相对来说是其韧性,而不是多变,在于线条所传递出的微妙的感觉,我把这种韧性用金属的材料表现出来。之前我还做过《荷》也是用一根线。当这种形式一出现,我觉得对了,虽然立体了,但你感觉到的还是笔墨,只是材质不同。无论你用钢笔还是毛笔钩,最后线条还是会立体呈现,这种感觉和效果都还是蛮好的,同时也是把材料进行了一种有机的转换。
   黄:那么,这种语言和你现在做的装置有什么联系?具体说,你以铜为媒介做的线,是雕塑意义上创作的山和你现在将在今日美术馆创作的这个悬置的山是什么样的关系?因为刚才说你的那个语言还是具有雕塑/装置的特点,而你现在要创作的是一个巨大的悬置的山。严格意义上来说,它已不仅仅是一个雕塑/装置,同时又是一种富有物质的媒介。我想问的是从纸上的山再到以铜做的山,是什么原由导致这种异置的转变?
   汪:我觉得任何一件平面或者立体的作品放在空间里的效果非常重要。就像你说的空间,其实这两件作品一个铜的、另一个纸质,这都是它的基础材料。铸铜也是根据纸质作品翻出来的。之所以这次我想在今日美术馆,把一个悬置的山做起来,还是为了让这件作品和空间去发生关系,从而产生第三空间。而这个空间,它和光、和空间其他物体、和观众都会发生关系,从而营造有一种不一样的山水,所以他是不同的,一种异置,感觉上的异置。元素相同,但是呈现不同,表现的自然还是山,还是水,当然,你看到的也还是山的轮廓,不同的是他在空间里与光又发生了关系。
   黄:也就是说,你的作品占领了这个空间,同时空间又塑造了你的作品,让元素之间彼此相互作用,从而产生了第三种空间——既是客观的,也是主观的。
   汪:我想每个人置身这个空间里,都会形成自己独有的第三空间,你可以自己去想象,进而有产生了每个人独有的思想空间。
   黄:这里还有一个现实的问题,半年以前,新水墨在中国艺术市场层面上被推广的非常热闹。你认为自己的作品属于新水墨吗?
   汪:我也不太清楚我自己的定位,我小时就学习书法和中国画,大学又学了油画专业,后面一直既画油画,又画水墨,也写字和格律诗。我觉得我跟新水墨之间还是有一点不同的,或者真的就不同,因为我没把他看成是水墨,我觉得它就是作品。当然现在很多新水墨画家都画的很好,但是他们更多的是在寻求一种趣味,或者某种宣泄,而我没有寻求趣味,也不想发泄什么,我在创作的时候没有就趣味来作为我作品的主旨,我一直想营造一个更大的视野,更能够使人产生一种震撼的、沟通的状态,是为了产生共鸣,同时又激发想像,这和营造一个趣味,或者展现某种技术还是有本质上的区别的。所以我也不太清楚自己到底是不是新水墨。
   黄:刚才你讲了自己的经历,之前画油画,后学书法和国画。我想问你的油画与现在的水墨画之间有什么相互渗透性,又在画面上是怎么进行处理的,请举些例子。
   汪:比方说我在画油画的时候,我在对待整个画面的笔触,笔与画布之间的触觉,我是用书法的感觉来处理的,无论我画写实作业还是抽象的尝试,这其实也是书法的本能导致画笔和画布接触的瞬间的感觉,的确有别于没有练过书法的人,是绝对不一样的,我平涂一块颜色,和没有书法训练的人平涂一块颜色,出来的感觉是真有不同的,这种感觉没有固定词汇能把他形容出来。反之,油画对于我在结构和形体的把握,包括学习油画,学习西方艺术,进而从画面的控制上反馈给中国画,形成了我画的山水,不再是传统的山水,他会从传统的山水脱离出来,所以说他又不是中国画。我认为两者之间相得益彰。
   黄:其实,你把平面的水墨走向了物质化的转变。你又是如何把握物质与物质间的关系的?
   汪:从自然界中,有时候我会发现一个东西,例如一片树叶,也许他很普通,但是你把它放到一个环境中去,就会发现他变得不普通了,变得非常好看,甚至高贵,他跟空间产生了关系。如果我们长期的把墨或者水放在纸上,这不仅仅是材料的单一性,可能你的感觉也变得单一了,也会变得狭隘了。当你把一块材料就是涂一个颜色在纸上,和放在一个恰当的空间时,这个感觉就会发生很大变化。所以中国古人也好,西方人也好,都有就此做过各种各样的尝试,把作品和空间形成对话。其实无论怎么表达,最终就是为了强调一种气氛,这个气氛能够把画面当中的,我想要的那种传达的方式来强化出来,是人们觉得这个气氛性更强。
   黄:我觉得艺术境界的简洁性是最难处理的,这其中包含了很多的趣味,尤其在水墨画中,对画面形式的把握,空间的多与少、笔墨的繁与简、结构的强与弱的处理,都充分表现出画家个人的趣味和格调。你是怎么理解个人趣味、修养在创作中得以具体的体现?
   汪:这是因人而异的,有的人是一直往上堆砌,加东西,加的越多可能就会越兴奋,越开心。而我是一直在往下减,减的越多我就越开心,减到最后,我的画面只有一点或一线的时候,最开心。但是,你真的减起来,的确是有难度的,这可能和思维习惯有关系。我也遇见过一些设计师,他们很喜欢用加法,有些设计师喜欢用减法,但用减法的人往往曲高和寡,因为简洁的美,同时也让他的受众变少。但是在做的过程中,我认为很有意思,有意思在于你能不能战胜你自己,比如,我在一个画面里画一个线条,这根线条放在什么位置,我怎么把握这根线条,每次画的时候都有巨大的挑战,每一次都是在实验,在尝试,是在挑战我对这根线的把控,永远有画不完的那一根线条。
   黄:当然,就像石涛说的一画,虽然说是一画,并非单纯而简洁的问题,而是涵盖对万千的化痕,是变化和生成的问题。
   汪:他是随着时间、地点、人的情绪状态的变化,那一画都会有变化。我对禅很感兴趣,禅学可化解我们暂无法解决的思想问题。我更特别对中国商周时期那种人对待事物、对待宇宙的思维方式。那是最直接的,也是最质朴的,最自然,也是最深刻的探讨。就像他说我们宇宙由黑白两个东西组成、正负两种物质构成,他们相互缠绕、纠葛、旋转、运动,无休止,是最古老的辩证关系,又是涵盖性最高的哲学。
   黄:因为我在你的画中看到简洁的线条和大量的留白,画面在形式与意境上交织着一种宁静之感和蓄势爆发之感。
   汪:是的,当然,这种寂静的感觉中又有一种力量,只不过这种力量蕴藏在里面,又具有爆发出来的势头。我认为,如果这个画没有爆发的势头,只是简简单单的蕴藏,那么我会觉得不满意了,他必须要有一种力量,一种爆发的势头,给人一种冲击力,但表面看上去还是那么平静。

2015年12月4日于今日美术馆5层办公室。

A Conversation between Wang Yizhou and Huang Du
Huang Du (hereinafter referred to as Huang): Since some time ago, in art circle, the relationship between wash painting and contemporary art has been a hit subject, which developed into a discussion on how wash painting could extend its contemporary. From this perspective, as you could create a huge installation in main hall of building NO.1 of TAM this time, you tried to response to the topic mentioned above. So, why do you have this thought? To be specific, how the idea of doing art in a three-dimension space rather than only on paper comes into your mind?
Wang Yizhou (hereinafter referred to as Wang): To be honest, I have had the idea of doing a three-dimension artwork since very early time. But I always lack enough motivation to make it happen. However, when I saw the space of TAM, the idea came out again. I believe that Chinese material and language form have their uniqueness, if I could make a transformation on the nature of material by building a special space, the Chinese spirit would be expressed more adequately, hence the wish of realizing it became stronger. Before, there were some artists had made some relative try. They did their work in a natural environment and made a combination of landscape and literati spirit. It’s exciting. I think it’s a more direct measure because they build a relationship with mountain and water and it is quiet similar to the conception of traveling in the scenery, so it’s a tangible experience. As for me, I want to dissociate the mountains from its shape and the water from its state, and then reset the shape and state in a museum space to boost another feeling. I have attached importance on artist’s feeling about nature for a long time. While the artists expressed their feelings through their skills, the messages carried by their artworks are no longer a natural existence; instead, they are maybe a kind of spiritual meanings in various forms. When other people are watching them, a new atmosphere is created. Therefore, the core-value of artworks is based on the artist’s knowledge, I think the control on degree of extracting form and state from the appearance is a unique Chinese wisdom and also a key point that shows an artist’s self-cultivation. Instead of taking audience to the nature, what I want to do is rebuilding an environment, a cultural environment.
Huang:As to mountain and water, Chinese ink and wash used to express them in a whole environment, such as the “Travelers among Mountains and Streams” by Northern Song dynasty painter Fan Kuan. In the painting, a big mountain stands tall before the audience, water and mountains are perfectly arranged to build a quiet atmosphere, and it seems that audiences can hear the sound of the flow. In that way, a movement is shown in a still painting while a time conception is built by the arrangement of that painting. Another example is “water” by Southern Song dynasty painter Ma Yuan. In this painting, the form and the movement of water are intelligently displayed by the painter’s incomparable skill. The up and down of the water become vivid through his quivering brush, and audience could feel the huge power behind his brush, which is like a dragon is flying. Of course, instead of using many lines, you choose to leave a lot blanks in your paintings, which appears to be more pure and simple. So, what’s your understanding about the relationship of still, movement and space of mountain and water?
 
Wang: I like the magnificent landscape painting from Five Dynasties to Northern Song dynasty a lot, during which period the painters had already have a deeper understanding of mountains, so their understanding could be transmitted into a cultural and spiritual power. As a result, they painted high mountains in a highly-summarized way. The whole mountain is majestic, though the trees and stones are detailed and various. Ma Yuan painted water a lot, which is as grand as mountains. Compared with them, people are tiny. In this case, the mountain and water become a spirit rather than an object. Afterwards, Chinese landscape tended to be in a small pattern, especially during Ming and Qing dynasty, landscape focused on showing artist’s taste. The grand atmosphere built in landscape of Five Dynasties to Northern Song dynasty disappeared. When it comes to today, only skills left in landscape painting. The imposing manner is no longer exist. When I was living in the mountains, what is most impressive for me is the momentum of mountains but the changeable shape. For me, showing the conception of mountain and water by simple lines is enough. That is mountain, my mountain.
Huang: Your work “Mountain”, which is a sculpture made of waved copper wire that settled against a white wall. It is a simple but poetic expression. My question is how do you make the transformation between the abstract lines used in traditional Chinese ink wash and the installation language?
Wang: I always want to make my lines integrated into the 3D space, thus the series emerge. I made it two years ago; it is a large-scale piece, almost 20-30 meters in total. I simplified the wrinkling and rubbing and left the outline only, no matter what I was painting, like the mountain, water, lotus or trees. The power of each brush is very important from the perspective of wash and ink. This conception is quiet like “one brush method “of Shi Tao. Of course, it is a challenge for artists. Then I start to wonder what it will be like if the pure outline was displayed as a 3D artwork. Like the Giacometti, why he is regarded as the top sculptor in western art circle? I think the answer is that he strengthens the contrast between the lines, but it is different from the eastern line which is the carrier of meaning. In fact, I was inspired by him. I want to extend my lines’ tenacity by using metal materials, which is also different from seeking variety of lines. Before, I had made a work called lotus by using one line. When I discovered this measure, I knew I found the correct way. Because audience would sense the brush through different materials and dimensions, which creates a positive effect and is a successful transformation.
Huang: Then, what’s the relationship between this expression and the installation you are working on? To be specific, what’s the relationship between the cupreous mountain and the inverted mountain exhibited in TAM this time? As you said your language has some sculptural features, but the inverted mountain you are working on, strictly, is not only an installation but also a medium. From mountain on paper to a cupreous mountain, what led you to make this inversion?
Wang: I think it’s very important to have a good layout for any work, such as the space you mentioned above. The paper and copper are only basic materials of an artwork, and the cuprous one is a variant of the paper one. The reason why I inverted the mountain at the hall of TAM is that I want to build a relationship between the work and the space. Hence the third space was established, which would interact with lights, other stuff and audience. It’s a distinguish landscape, so it is a kind of insight.
Huang: In other words, your artwork occupies this space, at the same time, the space becomes a part of your work. Factors in the spaces interact then the third space emerges both subjectively and objectively.
Wang: I think the third space is unique for each person who is at the hall, because it comes from his or her imagination.
Huang: I have a realistic question for you. Half a year ago, the new ink and wash was very popular in the art market. Do you think your work is a kind of new ink and wash?
Wang: I do not have a clear idea about my position. I started to learn calligraphy and Chinese painting when I was a child, then I learned oil painting in college. After graduating, I continue both ink painting and oil painting and sometimes, write poem and do calligraphy. I think my work is different from new ink painting, because I never have concept of the new ink painting in my mind when I am doing my work. Of course, many new ink paintings are very wonderful, but it’s a way to seek enjoyment or relieve feelings for the artist. However, it is not what I want to do. What I want to do is making a wide communication to inspire imagination or boost vibration, which is totally distinctive from the two motivations mentioned above. So I do not know if I can be regarded a new ink painting artist.
Huang: I want to know how your oil painting and your ink painting interpenetrate. And what’s the trace of this interpenetrate shown in your paintings? Please give some examples.
Wang: For example, no matter when I am painting realistic painting or abstract painting, I control the brush with the calligraphy method. This is an instinct only a man who has practiced calligraphy for a long time could have. It’s true that my flat color square is different from the man’s who never learn calligraphy. This instinct can be described by language. On the other side, the western art has an effect on my landscape painting. Thus, my landscape becomes distinctive among traditional landscape painting, it is not Chinese painting any more. I think the two complement each other.
Huang: In fact, you substantialize the flat ink. So how do you deal with the relationship between substances?
Wang: An object in the nature, such as a leaf, is very ordinary. But if it was displayed in a given space, it could be beautiful, even noble. It is because a new relationship has been built between it and the space.
Wang: If we always paint on paper, it’s not only the medium that is monotonous, but also the feelings are conveyed in a monotonous way. Compared with painting on paper, putting a piece of material into a suitable space can make a big difference. That is why both Chinese and western artists made various tries to combine the artwork and space. To be honest, no matter what method is applied, the aim is to creating a special atmosphere, under which audience could receive more information.
Huang: I think the most difficult thing is keeping the conciseness of artwork. It takes a lot of wisdom, especially for ink and wash, to arrange the composition, brush and form, which fully reflects the artist’s taste. How do you feel the reflection of the artists’ personal taste in their works?
Wang: It varies from person to person. For some people, the more stuff the better, whereas for me the less the better. Maybe doing subtraction is not our thinking pattern and is hard to realize. The less stuff on painting the harder for people to understand. Thus only few people like these artworks. But for me it is interesting, I like the challenge from myself. For instance, every time I paint a line, I am facing a big challenge of controlling the line. This struggle never ends.
Huang: Of course, like Shi Tao’s one brush, extensive message is concentrated as one brush, which is not simple issue but a complicated one about transmutation.
Wang: Shi’s brush changes according to the time, the place and his emotion. I am interested in Tao, because Tao could explain the mysterious issues we cannot fully understand currently. Besides, I am obsessed with the thinking pattern of people living in Shang and Zhou dynasty, which is pure, direct natural and deep. For example, they believe the world is consist of two factors that continuously interact, such as black and white, the positive and the negative. The discussion on the relationship between the two is the oldest dialectics and the most comprehensive philosophy.
Huang: I can see some simple lines and a lot of blank space in your painting and this form could give audience a strong feeling coming from the confluence of the tranquility and potential energy.
Wang: Yes, of course, this still contains a power which is ready to break out anytime. If there was no outburst, I would feel disappointed. It’s necessary to accumulate power in the painting which maybe looks peaceful.
At 5th floor, TAM , 4th December,2015

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